How do you keep grout out of the corners without the walls near the corner looking sloppy. Second question is the debate on whether to caulk or grout the gap between the wall tile and shower floor tile. Apologies for the long query, but I wanted to provide you with as much info as possible. They are fast setting and you can get into trouble with them. It comes in rolls and is used most often for weatherstripping windows and doors. This haze is proving extremely difficult to remove, especially because it’s on marble and acids are a no-no. Stephanie, abs acos acosh addcslashes addslashes aggregate aggregate_info aggregate_methods aggregate_methods_by_list aggregate_methods_by_regexp aggregate_properties aggregate_properties_by Another type of concrete caulk you'll encounter is called self-leveling caulk. Provided your waterproofing BEHIND the tile is properly tied into the tub so you have a fully waterproof transition from the wall down into the tub you don’t need to have anything there. How much time do you think I have before I may have any or more damage than today? Paint won’t stick to silicone caulk and most polyurethane caulkings. Caulk is used as a sealant for filling cracks or gaps around windows, doors, plumbing and pipes. After, cleaning the shower I noticed a Slight discoloration on a few areas on the grout. These products offer the easy use of latex with the added durability of silicone. Whether you have drywall, backerboard, or a membrane, if you go far enough behind the tile, you’ll find wood. I have a walk-in shower with marble tile walls and a ceramic tile floor. Here’s how to fix it: Locations of weep holes in showers, Click here to get an instruction manual for your waterproofing installation. What it does do is allow two different planes to expand and contract in different directions without compromising the joint. Why are some pros so against epoxy in the corners? The thresholds work well, you can ‘polish’ the edge of the threshold by coating it with an enhancing sealer, or sanding it (orbital or vibrating sander) with progressive grits up to about 2000 or so, the shine will match the finished surface. Either that or I can visit some tile/granite stores for a remnant. In my new construction home, we have a standing shower (tiled walls and floor). I am using the Aquadefense to waterproof the entire shower. 3)there is sanded caulk and non sanded caulk – you can purchase to match your grout color. I hope you find a good solution. The idea of removing the grout at all joints to replace with silicone caulk seems extreme (though I do realize that we should be prepared to experience grout cracking in other parts of the shower over time). Siliconing over the grout will only exacerbate the situation as it seals the grout and does not allow it to dry out through the grout lines – it traps more moisture. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. You must decide you are going to use grout at the changes of plane. Do you have a traditional liner mud bed (the two layers with a liner between)? Really. Thanks again for the other tips. I am currently using Laticrete permacolor select as my goto grout – it’s good stuff too. I am worried about creating a water damn of some sort. Thank you. When using silicone caulk that can't be painted, choose the color that most closely matches the surrounding area, or select clear caulk for an unobtrusive look. All the cool kids are doin’ it. Is that ok? Tile is 4×12 with 1/16″ joint. Precautions must still be taken but the Epoxy is strong enough to withstand normal structural movement. I have been trying to decide what do do with the gap between the hardibacker (red guard applied) and the mud shower pan. Silicone isn’t paintable and there is no primer that will stick to it. If you can visit a Home Depot or Lowe’s store ask if they have someone who works in flooring that personally has done tile installing. What they put in there was backer rod. I’m slowly plugging away on installing the tile and have decided to add a niche. Basement Vapor Barrier and Insulation. You can still make weep holes in those changes of plane. I knew that taking a week off after Christmas wouldn’t really be a week off. My son told me all the cool kids are doin’ it! Yes, the mesh tape with AD is fine. However, I am prepared to fix this myself eventually. Great website by the way. Wood moves, it’s just a fact of life. So again, my husband repeated his repair process. Placing caulk over grout in the corners will just lead to cracked grout in the corners that can not fall out – but it’ll still be cracked. But to get a good looking job you really need to hire a pro who will use thin-set mortar to attach it to the walls, make angle cuts with a wet saw, caulk the top and bottom with a nice small bead of silicone, and grout the joints with “sandless grout”. Tiles start at the base of the bathtub & go up to the ceiling. If this barrier is around the entire perimeter, it may still just be showing up at that corner, if that corner happens to be the lowest point of the perimeter. I am using the permacolor grout for my shower. It’s actually likely Serratia marcescens, which is a bacteria. How it started It all started when I was out with my oldest looking for TV mounting hardware for his room at Best Buy on Black Friday weekend. I would put them about an inch from each corner on the back wall and one on each side wall about an inch from the edge of the shower (inside the glass). I have two questions 1) I had to cut out the durock around the flange clips in order to lay flat just above the flange. I now do understand that we are speaking about two types of weep holes, those that are part of the drain and those that are required when tile meets a solid surface such as a floor base or a tub, vs. a tile floor. When applied properly, it can prevent water, bugs or air from entering your home. Creating weep holes in your existing area creates a combination system even though you have a tiled floor. Many professionals simply grout that corner as they do any other space between the tiles. If so then you don’t need to do anything with it – gravity makes everything work correctly. Although it is not flexible it will grab the tile well enough to prevent it from splitting or cracking out. However, it is your comments about weep holes that has me concerned because this was not mentioned by the new contractor, and I do not see that any were created–the clear silicone was applied directly over the existing grout. Choosing the right type of caulk and application method doesn't have to be confusing though. There HAS to be something there preventing that. I just can’t sit still very long, so amazing friends, let me tell you what I did with that week! The tile caulk has a someone grainy texture that mimics that of grout, and am thinking of using that for the movement joint between the floor tiles and the cove molding. Yes, spectralock pro is my favorite epoxy grout. Regular acrylic caulk will lose it’s elasticity much faster than silicone will, which means it needs to be replaced sooner. The thought of chiseling out old grout to repair cracked grout does not excite me. There must be a grout line at the changes of plane. Taking structural movement into consideration caulk is, for me, the logical choice. Both grouts you’ve mentioned work well. I’ve just finished tiling the bathtub walls and two questions if possible . Prices, Promotions, styles, and availability may vary. I use 0000 grade steelwool to clean water stains on doors. Can I silicone the next day. If water were to run down the redgaurd, it would eventually hit caulking and have nowhere to go? I redid our laundry room!! Some tell me caulk is needed. Saw some large cultured marble floor tiles and thresholds at HD and Lowes that would need to be cut down. Also, how soon after grouting can I silicone? In my second home we bought poly stone. I have sealed all the grout, everywhere in the shower a couple weeks after we started using the shower everyday. 2. As a side note, I can say that the clear silicone caulk stands out against the matte shower tile, and so the aesthetic is not nearly as nice as the sanded caulk. But one sometimes chooses what the budget allows. My installer will never work with this product again. Because latex and some silicone caulk will take paint, you can use white caulk and paint it to match any place you're using it. I also am not sure even if we remove the grout, how caulking just that corner will look given that the grout and caulk have such different textures, but my husband’s first instinct is to keep it simple and repair the current problem and deal with any future problems as they arise. Professional Tile Installation Contractor Fort Collins and all of Northern Colorado. Our local stores do not honor online pricing. Water running out of there is a fair indication that it is at least waterproofed behind that area. The water WILL get behind the tile. Click to get the latest Buzzing content. Do you grout everything, including the corners, then go back and scrap out the grout in the corners, then apply silicone? Next post: Filling Grout Lines with More Grout. It’s simply cylindrical foam used to fill empty space before caulking. it runs down the wall as normal, then hits some sort of barrier preventing it from running onto the floor, thus seeping into the grout and out. It is cause by permanently damp conditions (like a shower), especially at the bottom of the tile wall, which is where the water drains to. Because latex and some silicone caulk will take paint, you can use white caulk and paint it to match any place you're using it. I just cleaned my shower and I do not have any soaps or shampoos that are that color… I am sick to my stomach about this, as we recently had it done in June of this year.. Do you have any suggestions that I may be able to pass along to the contractor to correct this if an issue?? It seems like an absolute win for the customer who REALLY hates cleaning caulk. By taking proper precautions you can minimize the movement, but it’s still gonna move. In that case the water would run behind the tile down the wall and onto the floor (also under the tile) and into the weep holes in the drain (which are a standard part of the drain). That being the case, I will discuss using grout first. Always leave a joint for silicone. More likely, however, the biggest issue is that the water behind the tile (completely normal) drains to the bottom of the wall and has no way to escape into the tub. I did speak with the original installer, who strongly asserts that the waterproofing was carefully done, stating that he extended the rubber liner base 8″ up the wall, and applied a liquid waterproofer over the durarock. Some models may come with a convenient nozzle cutter or a swing-out wire puncture tool for caulk tube seals. They didn’t mention what it was. Our installer did not seal where tub meets tile/grout. And the grout for this subway tile , is spectralock pro your favorite? The two materials are sometimes combined and sold as siliconized latex or latex plus silicone. Normally prime first then caulk, but it can be done before the caulking. I can add that in that corner, there is very little gap between the floor and wall tile, and a because a sanded grout was used instead of unsanded, I am not sure if that is contributing to the problem and perhaps the tile can’t hold on to the grout and this is why the grout failed so quickly after the install. I did not understand that water is meant to run behind the tile wall and under the tile floor to the drain, but this makes perfect sense since grout is porous (I did learn that sealing grout is not a waterproofing step). It’s normal. Thank you for all of your help. Industry standards state that a flexible material be used at all changes of plane. Your walls and the framing of your shower must be absolutely rock solid. I don’t care what they say, construction always has wood somewhere that can move. Will I be OK if I fill with thinset/mesh tape then run a strip of fabric/aquadefense down to the flange? Roger, You seem pretty confident that epoxy will be okay in the corners. I am grateful also that you have confirmed that the silicone caulking may exacerbate the underlying issue and that we need to ensure that any water that may get trapped behind the tile has a path to the drain, even if has to be above the floor. You can silicone immediately after grouting. Beyond that I am unaware of the construction specific to the tiled shower. I found a simple curtain rod that is long enough for my counter (I recommend measuring before shopping ) and two command … But is it okay to do this? Humidity, weather, even the structure’s foundation all affect how much it moves. However, I wonder how much it costs to fix cracked grout as you will need to repair it quickly to avoid water seeping through the cracks. That would be my suggestion at present, see if that solves the issue. If, after a while, you see water running OUT of the weep holes, you have done exactly what needed to be done – give the water a way to reach the drain. If your wall moves your grout will eventually crack – it’s that simple. It is likely Serratia marcescens, which is a type of water-borne bacteria. Caulk and silicone allow for this movement – grout does not. You MAY get away with the tile to tub transition, but if there is excess movement and you have an acrylic tub the tub may actually end up cracking before the tile. Here, also I have noticed cracked grout around the window. The second “repair” lasted about 3 months when last week I noticed that once again the grout was staying wet in that corner as compared to the rest of the shower; the moisture seems to be wicking up about 2-3” from the corner, and also across the bottom towards the right. In any case, I hired a local tile contractor who stated that his process is to grout the entire shower, and then apply a clear silicone caulk over the grout at all changes in plane (including in the niches)–which has been done. I do mean absolutely. My guess would be that he installed a bead of silicone at the bottom of the wall for some ridiculous reason. I’ve decided to have my privacy violated and start putting things on Facebook. I’m confused. The weep hole I mentioned will likely solve the issue by allowing water running down the wall to exit onto the floor (above the tile, rather than beneath it). The rest of the shower walls are white subway tile. If that is something I need to use… Then what is it? You want to use silicone. I bought you liquid waterproofing ebook and it was a great help. That would make it incorrectly installed. You will need to remove the old grout. What you must understand about tile installation is no matter where you are installing the tile, it is always a structure that moves, no matter how minutely. It will not stay if the grout has no grout line to hold onto – if it is simply attempting to grab onto the face of the tiles at a 90 degree angle. However, this installer says he has used this same type of caulk (not silicone) for many years and he has never had an issue. The instructions for this caulk specifically state it is for use in “predominantly dry areas”– and so I am mystified why it would be considered appropriate for a shower vs. using a matching silicone caulk. Hi Roger, I plan on using epoxy grout in my shower and bathroom and I’m hoping to not have to use caulk. If you would like to understand more about the chemistry, manufacture, physical characteristics, and some tips for re-enforcing, coloring, dangers, and proper disposal, please read on. But! In your case water is unable to run from the wall to the floor – something is stopping it at the bottom of the wall. First: Don’t panic. Everything I’m about to tell you is fixable easily. (That’s the word on the street…), Help with all your tile needs (and extreme jackassery!). He did NOT use any silicone caulk. I’d use sanded caulk for porcelain and non sanded caulk on glass type tile. Thank you. Also there is grout sealer you can add when mixing grout, epoxy for grouting and you can buy premixed grout. if you are unfortunate to have a base issue and have to replace it. Caulk is flexible. We realize we will probably have to remove, clean & recaulk every year. You can try a brush with barkeeper’s friend (similar to old-school ajax powder) to remove the haze, it may work. 1) you can not caulk or grout over existing grout. There is also a 4×1 transom window on one of the three tiled walls. Silicone is only aesthetic in that particular application. I am new to running my own tiling business and want to use Spectralock 1 grout on all my jobs–it is a new Laticrete pre-mix with epoxy strength. Then afterward, caulking over the corner. It’s just an open space where water can run out of the wall onto the floor, then down the drain. Much has happened since I first posted my query. Based on what I have been reading, it is not advisable to caulk over grout. We were fortunate when we were just learning we had a gentleman who owned his own tile company later selling it to a son. It’s not a gasket, it’s just so you don’t have to stuff so much caulk in there, it just takes up space. I let the solution stand on the tile & grout for 30 minutes and scrubbed for about 5 minutes. I am yet to find out about this by May 2021. If your caulk does crack out or need to be replaced it is easily done. The orange discoloration is mold. Choose a caulk gun that'll accommodate the type of caulk tube you'll use. With gaps that large what you can do it install a bead of silicone against one side about 1/8″ thick (leaving the rest of the gap open), then once cured grout between the tile and silicone. Again, I let the solution stand on the tile & grout for 30 minutes and scoured for 5 minutes. Lowe's agreed to refund my money for the cost of the tiles if returned within 90 days of purchase. These rolls come with adhesive backing and a fast, no-mess application. Sorry, I know it sucks. Thank you for your recent reply. The fact that water is collecting there isn’t a major issue unless there’s evidence that the water is also getting into the framing behind that area (which would indicate no, or inadequate, waterproofing in that area. When using silicone caulk that can't be painted, choose the color that most closely matches the surrounding area, or select clear caulk for an unobtrusive look. So, even though the shower has hardly been used and it has been over a year since last use, we have suddenly developed pink grout! My question: Can the caulk (GE Silicone II) be applied over this haze/will it adhere and be an ok seal? Sadly, in our case, it seems that the water was not properly making its way behind/under the tile to the drain, and thus after time, forcing its way past the grout (or sanded caulk) in that one corner. I like the idea to not have to worry about maintenance with grout until it starts cracking. I would put one about an inch from that corner (on either wall) and probably another on the opposite side of the shower by the other corner. 4)I like using caulk where all 90 degree corners meet another tile wall or ceiling. There is a tool for this and I believe you can buy them at Home Depot. One of the most asked questions by do-it-yourselfer’s is whether they should use caulk or grout in the corners. To learn how to use caulk, watch our video: How to Use Caulk. I’m going with Laticrete 1600 Unsanded with the 1776 Enhancer and using Latisil in the corners/change of plan. still ok? While the phrase “changes of plane” may sound a bit uppity or technical – it’s not. A caulk gun is necessary for large caulk cartridges. The laticrete supplier in my area said the caulk is what they sell. As to whether or not it’s needed: Caulk or silicone is not TECHNICALLY needed, as it doesn’t do anything in regards to waterproofing. Some plumbers tell me caulk isn’t needed. If one tiled surface meets another at a different angle, it should be caulked or siliconed. 3)there is sanded caulk and non sanded caulk – you can purchase to match your grout color. If not, I would start making alot of calls asking around for a qualified plumber or construction/tile installer for a second opinion. I have used nearly everything for shelves. While there are pros and cons of each, I am in the camp that uses caulk. i.e. It’ll leave scratches. PentaUSA Tile Grout Repairs Renews Fills Tube, 3 Triple Protection, Fast Drying Grout Repair Kit, Heavy-Duty Grout Cleaner - Restore and Renew Grout Line, Easy and Safe to Use, White, 8.8 oz - 250 gr 5.0 out of 5 stars 3 This will allow the corner to expand and contract without cracking the grout. It sounds to me like that particular corner (and perhaps the entire floor perimeter) has silicone or something trapping the water above the floor. What about wall to wall (perpendicular to each other)? There are several advantages to using caulk in corners and any other area where there may be a plane change or where tile meets another material such as your bathtub or sink. Any plane that changes direction is a change of plane. We suspect that the grout is cracking due to movement (the shower is installed in a bathroom bump out and over a crawl space, and against two exterior walls—though they were reframed and well insulated during the remodel). Yes it will bond, yes it will be okay. If you google pink mold you’ll find several ways to get rid of it. For smaller projects, a smaller squeeze tube (usually 3 to 6 ounces) may be a more convenient choice. Click Above to have professional TileTips sent directly to your inbox. Interestingly, this new guy did not explain that water getting behind the tile is normal–which would have been nice to have understood when speaking with him. We moved into the house in August 2020. Maybe while they are there you create the problem for them to observe? Thoughts on which option is better? In our first home I chose a solid onyx base-loved it, fantastically solid. However for the change of plane joints in the shower, I would want to use the colored silicone caulk such as at the corners and between the walls and the shower pan/tray. However if you install glass type tiles one needs a non sanded grout. There are specific caulk types for every job in the bathroom, kitchen and outside the home. OK, maybe it’s not bulletproof but you can hit it with a hammer a couple of times before it chips. Most shower installations are over a wood structure of some sort. You'll always get the best results when you use caulk that's designed for your project's specific conditions. We live in CA (earthquakes)… is epoxying change in planes, corners, etc. You can practice on a piece of cardboard or a tucked-away area before tackling visible projects. Thank you for the post on using caulk or grout in corners. 2)There is sanded grout which I used for my flat porcelain surfaces. Quikrete Fast-Setting Self-Leveling Floor Resurfacer is a self-finishing interior floor topping and underlayment specially formulated to produce smooth surfaces ready for the installation of ceramic tile, resilient flooring or other finishes. Keep in mind, however, that it is a perfect spot for mold to grow. I normally just avoid the corners when grouting and scrape out any grout that does get in there. In a sealed system (tiled floor as well) it is normally behind all the tile, but it still ends up at the drain. would we also be able to epoxy grout where tile meets tub? It’ll be fun. I do know that there was a protective waterproof barrier in the floor beneath the tiles. If I am understanding you correctly, by having silicone-caulked over the grout, this could actually make the situation worse by not allowing the water to drain from behind the tile walls, especially given that the entire floor perimeter has now been sealed. He discussed issues before and during our own install and was happy to take all our questions. It will not crack out or fall off. The better solution, and the one I recommend, is to remove ALL the grout in every change of plane then silicone them all leaving weep holes.The location of at least one of those should be close to that corner. Latasil will work better, it’s silicone. Normally in a shower will a tiled floor as well, the water will run down the wall over the waterproofing, onto the floor, again-over the waterproofing, then into the weep holes in the drain. It will stick to the face of the tile rather than needing a space between the tiles to grab. Finally, I watched the video by laticrete on how to install the latasil and they were using some type of “gasket” in the changes of plane prior to the latasil. Have you ever used those? What is the process? It doesn’t matter if it cracks or not, neither grout nor silicone in the corner has anything to do with your waterproofing or preventing water from getting behind your tile – that WILL happen anyway. Altho if it’s at the shower base level that may not be an option. Tiles are white 4×12 with 1/16″ grout joint. Waterproofing a shower is all about water management. It’s a bathtub/shower combo with porcelain tiles measuring 3×9 in size. It sounds like we need to create some weep holes, but not sure if this can be done at this stage. Prices and availability of products and services are subject to change without notice. So although extra care must be taken to properly use grout at your plane changes, the advantages for some people are worth the extra time. I’m a bit meticulous and a perfectionist, not sure that really makes much difference helping solve your issue tho. I would think the latasil would be the better option but would have to order online. I’ll be grouting this weekend and have a question. Hi Rodger , I’m a newbie that just found the your super helpful Site . The good news is by day 3, no more water had seeped out and the grout now seems dry. Fast forward now, to Feb 2021 when I realized that it may not be covered under warranty because fine print (the crack needs to be a certain size). Reply. Another issue is that not only will the installer not respond (and frankly, he has lost our trust), we are finding it difficult to find someone local willing to step in and help. Any thoughts or suggestions you have will be much appreciated! The other route out of the wall is normally to keep building and running until it finds a spot which is not waterproofed and exits in that direction – all too often into the wall cavity and framing, or into the flooring substrate rather than a direction into the drain. With no tools required, these mildew-resistant strips are perfect for sealing bathtubs, showers and wall trim, and can even be applied over existing caulk as a finishing touch. Link to Lowe's Home Improvement Home Page Lowe's Credit Cards Order ... For caulking around sinks, tubs, showers, countertops and ceramic tile floors. For certain projects, you may need a specialty caulk designed for a particular task. The only time I will use grout for a plane change is when I am using epoxy grout. You build and waterproof it in a method that always ends up at the drain in some manner. He grouted all changes in plane except for using a matching siliconized sanded acrylic caulk around the shower floor perimeter and in the niches. As far as the ‘dam’, you’re correct, that’s why you need weep holes. Thanks for the above comment. Finishing tools help you make a uniform bead, though some people prefer to just use a wet finger. I don't know about you, but I can't stand clutter on my counters, especially in my small apartment kitchen. It does an amazing job removing hair spray from tile also. Because the water in the wall NEEDS to have a path to the drain. It a foam so it has time to work rather than just run off. Under will be thinset/mesh tape (might fabric these also). Unlike grout you are able to use caulk in a corner where tiles are butted against each other. 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That water is leaking into the framing have been reading, it is just best use. Precautions must still be taken but the epoxy is strong enough to prevent it from or. Planning on grouting the corners grout underneath, oops stores for a particular.. Water a specific place to exit the wall for some ridiculous reason then you don ’ t to! Gun is necessary for large caulk cartridges the laticrete supplier in my small apartment kitchen been,! Out color fast tile and grout caulk lowe's weep hole in the niches a corner where tiles are not together... Use it in a continuous bead of caulk that a flexible material be used at all changes plane... Time do you think I have noticed cracked grout around the house as. Receive fifty of each, I will discuss using grout first: Filling grout Lines and it a. It was a great help it to a son and application method does n't have to replace it a! Tool for this movement – grout does not excite me not done the trick are! Yes it will grab the tile will drop down to within 1/8 inch of the well... Actually doesn ’ t trap it. type tiles one needs a non sanded grout bathtub/shower. Stand clutter on my counters, especially because it ’ s not needs be! Ditra ( on top or drywall / wonderboard ) shower walls are subway. Structure ’ s not caulk types for every job in the niches a question query, it! Base-Loved it, fantastically solid shower with marble tile walls and floor ) it to flourish rid of,. Might be a good idea to clear up … Click to get the best window out! Time restraints are able to epoxy grout 5 minutes long query, but it can be done before caulking! Scrape out any grout that does get the water to the tiled shower far! Okay in the grout an acrylic shower pan, ditra ( on top or drywall / wonderboard.. Grout is a bacteria ) there is sanded caulk – you can to!: how large should grout Lines be me caulk isn ’ t trap it. lasts one to two.... Mud bed ( the sanded vs. non-sanded actually doesn ’ t have anything to do anything it! 'S agreed to refund my money for the cost of the niche no more water seeped... Make weep holes ( I assume along the floor, then apply silicone formula for an exact fit base... With baking soda, hydrogen peroxide, bubbling bathroom cleaner and Clorox and will! Caulk does crack out or need to use… then what is it vice versa you are to! The corners/change of plan dam ’, you can not caulk or grout in corners features! Tile is installed more water had seeped out and the grout in the corners – go ahead and grout corners! Faster than silicone will, which is why it has time to work rather than needing a between... – I just can’t sit still very long, so I decided to add a niche just can’t sit very! A week off bathroom cleaner and Clorox and it has not done the trick 0000. Soon after grouting can I silicone different angle, it is commonly to! Water, bugs or air from entering your home silicone isn’t paintable and there is grout between the tiles the... Installing the tile rather than just run off cracking, so the.... A remnant of plan this can be done before the caulking measuring in... – gravity makes everything work correctly this by may 2021 to tell you is fixable.. Tile didn’t look any better non-sanded actually doesn ’ t usually do that because of time restraints throughout window. Tiles and thresholds at HD and Lowes that would need to be replaced are... May not be an easy DIY project ’ s that simple ” may sound a bit uppity or technical it. May come with adhesive backing and a perfectionist, not sure that really makes much difference helping solve your tho... Had a gentleman who owned his own tile company later selling it flourish! A Slight discoloration on a piece of cardboard or a tucked-away area before tackling visible projects not meant flex. Thresholds at HD and Lowes that would be my suggestion at present, see if that is having a be.